SECRETS OF BLACKMOOR
  • Home
  • What Others Are Saying About The Movie
  • Limted Edition DVD and T-Shirts
  • Reviews
  • Contact
  • Blog
  • See the Movie!
    • AMAZON PRIME
    • Vimeo Video on Demand
    • Purchase a DVD
  • Shop

DANGER - DANGER - GREG SVENSON! (part 2)

5/11/2018

4 Comments

 
Picture
In our last discussion we talked about the change in how people view Character Death as you trace a parallel path between the evolution of D&D and computer games.

Today we're going to look at old gamer culture and see if they had a different way of thinking about things back then. 

Ok, so let's just start off by telling you this -- It's your job as a referee to kill a lot of characters!

We'll go with Gary Gygax's assertion that a 50% mortality rate on every adventure is too high.  Yet there must be attrition or the stakes are too low.  How about if we get an average of 25%?  That seems reasonable. So what was the attitude toward killing off characters back then?

We're pretty sure the first DM's made their games really hard on players.  It wasn't enough just to be average, or good enough.  Players had to be really creative in order to "WIN"; and by winning, we mean that they were able to overcome a monster thus getting its treasure.

The first Dungeon's are Blackmoor (1971), Greyhawk (1973), and as far as we can tell, Tonisborg is right in there as well (1973/1974).   Blackmoor and Greyhawk predate the publication of any rules, so as play-test games they are going to be a bit different.  Tonisborg arose, or rather -- got dug, when D&D drafts were given to the players in the Twin Cities in the summer of 1973.  It then goes on to be altered again when the rules are published.  Greg Svenson told us he threw away his play-test draft once he got the published rules.
Picture
It's important to get a feel for how people think during this early stage in RPG's.  As DM's today, we know all about how a dungeon should be made.  We live within a culture of modern gaming where game play and dungeon design are common shared knowledge.  It wasn't like this back then at all.  Consider that what is contained in the rules for OD&D is sketchy at best, and that until Dave Arneson publishes the first Adventure Module: The Temple of the Frog via the Blackmoor OD&D Supplement II -- there are no good examples of dungeons for people to copy. Everyone is on their own as they try to figure out the best way to make their dungeon.

You may also want to consider that gaming culture changes dramatically from the early days.  We've interviewed a lot of early RPG'ers who started before 1974 and they describe things a lot differently; the DM's had no qualms about exterminating characters.

In our interview with David Wesely about his first trip to Blackmoor, he relates the game in great detail.  We are even able to corroborate this story with Ross Maker's account of the same adventure.  They go into the dungeon with a troop of dwarf hirelings in search of a princess who had been kidnapped by a Balrog.  At some point one of the dwarves at the back of the party gets separated and disappears.  The rest of the party eventually finds the Balrog, or he finds them; it's always a matter of perspective.  It's at this point that things get dicey and the Balrog proceeds to decimate the party, beginning with the dwarves.  The Balrog then turns his attention to the Players.  Just as Wesely and Maker are about to receive the killing blow from the Balrog, the lost dwarf reappears, comes up behind the Balrog, and clobbers him with one mighty blow.  Our hapless adventurers both shout, Hooray, were saved!

​End of story. Well, not really. 


Wesely says that although he had fun, he also gave Dave Arneson a hard time about the adventure, because he felt that Dave was being too easy on the players; that the rescue of the players by the lost dwarf is making the Deus Ex Machina too obvious.  Wesely's advice to Arneson is that he needs to allow his players to get killed in order to make the stakes higher and the game worth playing.  Arneson takes this advice to heart, from that point on Dave Arneson becomes a KILLER DM.

We know this because Arneson was known for running games at conventions where he would wipe out entire parties without blinking eye.  When asked about this high mortality rate, Arneson would mimic killing players characters by smashing his thumb into the table and grinding it back and forth.  This ruthlessness as a DM even comes up when he goes to demonstrate Blackmoor to the Lake Geneva Gamers in 1972.  In that adventure Terry Kuntz earned a singular honor.  While down in the dungeon, their small party of players: Gary Gygax, Ernie Gygax, Rob Kuntz, Terry Kuntz, and David Megarry, ran into a wizard.  Everyone else decided to run away.  Terry figured he could take him on and drew his sword. Well, things didn't last long.  The wizard drew his wand and blasted him with a fireball, frying him instantly.  As the first character to die in Lake Geneva, Terry can now claim to be Arneson's first kill outside of Minnesota.
Picture
The KILLER DM attitude is pervasive in the Twin Cities.  We asked Dave Belfry about his adventures in Blackmoor fully expecting to find out about an epic high level character with years of history and the countles stories that go with that.  Yet his response surprised us entirely, since he said something along these lines - I never had a character that lasted long.  As well as - I died a lot of times.

Martin Noetzel is most famous as the Wandering Elf, he related the same thing -- I died a lot of times.

We can take these examples of early gamer culture even farther if you listen to the type of language the original gamers use. 

Rob Kuntz says a very interesting word when he talks about playing with Arneson "I loved playing AGAINST Arneson…"

Chirine Ba Kal uses the same language when he talks about playing. He describes a game as playing AGAINST the DM.

We can hear the proverbial screeching tires as everyone who reads this is confronted by this old concept of playing against who ever is referee'ing your game.  If we relate back to our previous article on how Computer/Video Games change, consider how coin operated consoles give you 3 lives.  You can play your heart out and maybe you may last a really long time, yet in the end, the machine wins and you die -- GAME OVER!

Of course, some of you are now rolling on the ground while squealing things like "But the DM is supposed to be an impartial judge!"  Yeah, whatever, all you N00B gamers need to learn your lesson.  When you come to a real dungeon game, recall these words of wisdom that are written on the gates of hell: Abandon all hope - ye who enter here!

That's the difference in a nutshell: the original game is about surviving through hell, and new games seem to be like when the bell goes off, and all the children run out of the school and climb all over the super safe plastic playground equipment. Yup, it's fun, but it isn't a challenge if no one gets hurt. 
Picture
And of course you may be wondering how all of this can relate to Greg Svenson and his Tonisborg Dungeon. We're showing you a snippet of the dungeon key from level 1. You may notice that room #2 contains five wraiths.

If you are designing a dungeon, do you populate it with easy to kill monsters and do a lot of hand holding, so that your players are less likely to die? Or do you make things difficult and step on your player's egos a bit?

Judging by what we see in Tonisborg's 1st level, Greg too is a KILLER DM.

We feel we are building a really strong case for making dungeon games deadly again. What do you think?

In our next in this series on dangerous dungeons, we'll drag some of Dan Boggs research into the mix and talk about the actual mechanics involved. If you have any doubts, thus far -- trust us, it's only gonna get uglier. ​
4 Comments
Lokius
5/11/2018 08:42:04 pm

I think if you are doing a dungeon challenge type game a killer dungeon makes sense as a play style. While I have only been playing since the late 80's there has been a lot less emphasis on character death, at least except for Darksun which had the players roll up 4 characters each as part of the core rules.

I think though like in all gaming its a shared experience with the outcomes of what you are trying to achieve are communicated. If I said I want to run a deadly dungeon hack, don't get too attached to your characters upfront that works. If my players thought they were going to play a game exploring a world and their character's place in it and then run a killer dungeon I can accept my players wouldn't enjoy that.

All the old Greyhawk stories and posts made back in the day when he was doing his 'Up on a Soapbox' articles for Dragon magazine imply a game that was fun and challenging with a lot of death but also a lot of silliness (http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html)

I created a campaign setting inspired by those old articles a few years ago with an ever changing puzzles and traps dungeons under a giant mountain next to an ancient city linked to the mountain. the key schtick was adventurers or sometimes regular people were kidnapped from other worlds and woke up on the mountain, the city below was filled with adventuring companies in competition with each other to go deeper into the mountain. This way there was a potentially endless dungeon and a city that explained where they all came from. The city's economy was based on all the loot extracted from the mountain. The city itself was ancient and policed by golems to prevent fighting withing the city.

Anyway the idea of the setting was inspired by Gary's articles and it was a lot of fun to play and run.

Reply
Secrets of Blackmoor
5/11/2018 11:04:25 pm

Good comments - Thanks!

Like you said, If you announced you were running a deadly game people would understand. The original game had a lot of mortality if it was being played the way it was created. Players expected it to be that way as well. Certainly killing half the party on every adventure is a bit high too. People won't want to play with you either. But the numbers were higher back then.

We're really looking at how the play style has changed. Like you say, in the early days people lost characters a lot. And so this Is something that has changed with RPG's over time.

And yes, we do have fun being a little provocative. Yet our old bones tend to rattle a bit when we see campaigns with everyone at 14th or 15th level together, meaning no one has died for maybe 2 years, that seems a bit odd to us. ;)

If you tune in for our next article, we'll go into the actual mechanics and how Gary and Dave meant for the game to be dangerous. It's literally built into the system.

Reply
Ohio Arabs link
3/16/2021 05:39:38 pm

Thanks for writing this.

Reply
griff link
3/17/2021 11:36:53 am

Sure thing. I am always trying to promote the high stakes style of RPG where what you do matters.

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    ​DVD'S, BLU-RAYS AND  OTHER SPECIAL ITEMS FROM OUR KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN AVAILABLE  FOR PREORDER (UNTIL FEBRUARY 15TH)
    Reserve Your

    ​Copy Today

    Author

    Secrets of Blackmoor is a Feature-length documentary about the birth of the “Mother of all Games;” Dungeons & Dragons.

    Archives

    March 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    September 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    March 2019
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    April 2018
    March 2018

    Categories

    All

    RSS Feed

Privacy Policy
All Contents Copyright © 2023 The Fellowship of the Thing, Ltd. - All Rights Reserved 
  • Home
  • What Others Are Saying About The Movie
  • Limted Edition DVD and T-Shirts
  • Reviews
  • Contact
  • Blog
  • See the Movie!
    • AMAZON PRIME
    • Vimeo Video on Demand
    • Purchase a DVD
  • Shop